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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
228
   |
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
In life all we have is our time. If I am serious about spending 40 hours a week building up something in a game and some asshat comes over and 'spodes it becuase "its fun" that person has harmed me in exactly the same manner as if they had destroyed something I might have spent 40 hous in RL working to buy, like a car.
But most folks in Eve aren't smart enough to understand that so the lack of immediate consequence lets them sleep at night as though the didn't do something really evil.
So I would encourage all you Eve griefers to step up your game! Start giving RL crime a try! The rush should be even bigger and if you are even half way smart the lack of consequence should be identical. If you take away my 40 hours of life work product it hurts me the same either way.
I anxiously await inane rebutals from immoral Eve griefers that haven't figured out what life really is, just a fixed amount of time in the 'verse to spend how you choose, being moral or an asshat.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
228
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 21:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jita Alt666 wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
In life all we have is our time. If I am serious about spending 40 hours a week building up something in a game and some asshat comes over and 'spodes it becuase "its fun" that person has harmed me in exactly the same manner as if they had destroyed something I might have spent 40 hous in RL working to buy, like a car.
But most folks in Eve aren't smart enough to understand that so the lack of immediate consequence lets them sleep at night as though the didn't do something really evil.
So I would encourage all you Eve griefers to step up your game! Start giving RL crime a try! The rush should be even bigger and if you are even half way smart the lack of consequence should be identical. If you take away my 40 hours of life work product it hurts me the same either way.
I anxiously await inane rebutals from immoral Eve griefers that haven't figured out what life really is, just a fixed amount of time in the 'verse to spend how you choose, being moral or an asshat.
Issler Taking the bait. Eve Online is a game. The time you spend on the game is not an investment for virtual goods. It is entertainment. If some one destroys the virtual goods you have built up, they are not destroying the product of your time. They are not damaging you in real life. Your second sentence is says a lot. Quote:Eve turns people into real asshats. Eve has been intentionally designed that way. It is a mechanic of the game.
I agree that Eve is designed to bring out the worst in folks. I find it fascinating that it works so well. And you will never find me saying that has to change.
But tell me this, OK, so if you blow up my POS that's OK becuse its "not real" even though I may have hundreds of hours spent it doesn't matter. But vandalizing my car is bad because it exists in "RL" and is somehow worth more? Even if they take the same amount of my pool of time away? What if I had a hobby of building elaborate replicas of Eve space ships with popcicle sticks? Would it be OK to smash those? I don't "need" them and they aren't worth anything in RL.
You need to take a few philosophy classes and then spend a few years pondering life and what we percieve as reality (some physics classes related to quantum realities would be good too) then come back and tell me in a reality were all we have is finite time why they are any different.
Of course doing that might take away from time gate camping or sucide ganking miners.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
228
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 21:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:If I spend 20 hours of that time earning the ISK for a Hulk, it gives that Hulk a personal value to me that you can't say doesn't exist. That makes destroying it all the sweeter..
So just think how awesome it will feel when you smash the windows out of your neighbors house! Be sneaky about it an they will never catch you and it will be just like Eve! Woot!
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
235
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 23:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Justin Credulent wrote:And as for "perspective": It's not just "space cash" you're losing. Subscriptions aren't free, and CCP does not just give ISK away - you have to work for it, which requires real time and effort. As I said in my previous post, and which you selectively ignored: You're playing a game WITH OTHER PEOPLE. They might do things to you which negatively impact your gameplay in order to win. That's part of competitive games, beating the other guy. And in Eve, there is no set win condition, meaning that winning for me might be blowing up your stuff. If you want to grind for years and build stuff without risk of it being messed up, Eve isn't the game for you. If you accept that risk, you need to grow up and stop calling people names just because we choose to play a game in a different way than you do. Honestly, you're being childish.
I would never claim Eve should be a place where stuff isn't at risk.
However, there seem to be two types of adversarial behavior here.
One is the true "conflict". I seek to control space, resources or challenge you in your abilities to fight me. I think that is truly Eve and I respect folks that choose to engage other folks with those goals.
The second is the "asshat". The just just mess with folks to mess with folks. These are the low life gankers and griefers that believe that because Eve is a "sandbox" their actions are justifiable and moral. The "I can get away with it so it must be OK folks". These folks are easy to spot with their "I love your tears" posts and general perference for combat where they have an overwhelming advantage or destruction of basically undefended targets. These folks do it just to inflict pain on another, not for any other in game reward. These are the Eve equivalents of folks that key randon other folks cars for grins.
I'd argue that in this way Eve is broken. There isn't enought negative feedback to make folks engaged in this behavior really suffer any consequense. Negative security status is easily repaired and the bounty system is a joke.
That said, I don't claim to know how you could change Eve and still allow the "right" kind of non-consensual PvP to be allowed.
So to save some folks from some misguided angry responses, I'd put the goons ice miner thing in the first category of Eve conflicts. These efforts were organized with a specific goal. The "hulkagedon" events are tough for me, I see them more in the second category as they seem just for causing "pain" to other random players, but I could see them as a form of "hunting" since they are directed at a specific target. So that one is trickier.
Bottom line, no name calling intended but if you engage in ganking for tears, there is no argument that can be made that you are being anything other that what I'd call an "asshat".
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
237
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 23:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jita Alt666 wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Justin Credulent wrote:And as for "perspective": It's not just "space cash" you're losing. Subscriptions aren't free, and CCP does not just give ISK away - you have to work for it, which requires real time and effort. As I said in my previous post, and which you selectively ignored: You're playing a game WITH OTHER PEOPLE. They might do things to you which negatively impact your gameplay in order to win. That's part of competitive games, beating the other guy. And in Eve, there is no set win condition, meaning that winning for me might be blowing up your stuff. If you want to grind for years and build stuff without risk of it being messed up, Eve isn't the game for you. If you accept that risk, you need to grow up and stop calling people names just because we choose to play a game in a different way than you do. Honestly, you're being childish. I would never claim Eve should be a place where stuff isn't at risk. However, there seem to be two types of adversarial behavior here. One is the true "conflict". I seek to control space, resources or challenge you in your abilities to fight me. I think that is truly Eve and I respect folks that choose to engage other folks with those goals. The second is the "asshat". The just just mess with folks to mess with folks. These are the low life gankers and griefers that believe that because Eve is a "sandbox" their actions are justifiable and moral. The "I can get away with it so it must be OK folks". These folks are easy to spot with their "I love your tears" posts and general perference for combat where they have an overwhelming advantage or destruction of basically undefended targets. These folks do it just to inflict pain on another, not for any other in game reward. These are the Eve equivalents of folks that key randon other folks cars for grins. I'd argue that in this way Eve is broken. There isn't enought negative feedback to make folks engaged in this behavior really suffer any consequense. Negative security status is easily repaired and the bounty system is a joke. That said, I don't claim to know how you could change Eve and still allow the "right" kind of non-consensual PvP to be allowed. So to save some folks from some misguided angry responses, I'd put the goons ice miner thing in the first category of Eve conflicts. These efforts were organized with a specific goal. The "hulkagedon" events are tough for me, I see them more in the second category as they seem just for causing "pain" to other random players, but I could see them as a form of "hunting" since they are directed at a specific target. So that one is trickier. Bottom line, no name calling intended but if you engage in ganking for tears, there is no argument that can be made that you are being anything other that what I'd call an "asshat". Issler If you allow lawful evil you can't ban chaotic evil.
Exactly!!
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
237
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 23:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:I never lost my morality when I started playing, all I have really done is rearrange some pixels. Any harm done to anybody wasn't my fault, how could I know somebody was mentally unstable enough to take the said rearrangement of pixels seriously enough that it affected them IRL?
How to say this kindly, you are very early in your karmic journey. You are doing damage to someone else for the sake of making that person sad. That you can't see that shows you aren't very aware of the world you live in. You negated the result of someone else's real life time in getting or building whatever you 'sploded for kicks.
I get this is a game and you can make a case for "kicking over someone else's sand castle" if it is part of some "winning" strategy that involves eventual gain in game. But if it is just to be a bully, just admit it, you play the game to be the asshat you would be in RL if you could get away with it. Acknowledge you are deriving fun just because you caused someone else pain. At least then you'd be being honest.
Embrace your roll as someone that enjoys inflicting needless pain on others, maybe it's part of your life lesson,
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
238
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 00:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:The second is the "asshat". The just just mess with folks to mess with folks. These are the low life gankers and griefers that believe that because Eve is a "sandbox" their actions are justifiable and moral. The "I can get away with it so it must be OK folks". These folks are easy to spot with their "I love your tears" posts and general perference for combat where they have an overwhelming advantage or destruction of basically undefended targets. These folks do it just to inflict pain on another, not for any other in game reward. These are the Eve equivalents of folks that key randon other folks cars for grins. I've been heavily involved in the griefing of incursions lately. It's been incredibly profitable for us, and has a number of motives which I have discussed elsewhere. But to those we've ganked, they simply view it as heartless griefing. THEY think we're the type of people you describe. We see ourselves very differently, as we know our true motives. Don't be so arrogant as to think you know what goes on in the minds of others.
I wouldn't call it griefing if there is profit in it for you. That puts you in the first category of conflict. So please try and re-read what I wrote. I support a lot of what some folks call "griefing" as appropriate activity in Eve. No need to defend what you are doing to me, sounds great!
To another poster that commented about "playing someone as pure evil" in game, sure, ok, that is your choice. I'd suggest however that it says something about your character if you find yourself deriving real pleasure from just the pain you inflict on others. If you are doing it as your "RP" expression, go nuts, but ask yourself what about that path attracts you.
As to what goes on in peoples minds, I make no claim to begin to understand that!
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
239
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 07:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
My only comment at this point other than what I've already posted is that I think I have helped establish "asshat" as an Eve term!
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
246
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 00:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Terms like asshat and griefing are merely judgements of play styles within this sandbox. It doesn't follow that someone playing a particular style, is somewhat morally vacant in real life.
I'd be far more concerned about the real life actions, of people that seemingly cannot differentiate between game and RL situations. People like that would in my opinion, be more likely to try and hunt me down in RL for revenge. It's happened, even when it was only regarding your so called less "expensive death" games.
I'd say folks that play just because they enjoy kicking over someones sandcaslte for the fun of it would likely do the same thing in RL if the lack of consequense in Eve was also part of the RL. If they wouldn't then they don't understand that the two actions are basically the same. You destroy someones work product from the only thing we have in life, time because you find taking something away from another and inflicting pain in itself enjoyable. I would bet if you could get away with it in RL you'd do the same thing in RL.
Someone in an early post pointed out quite elequently that Eve is different than a FPS because the only goal in an FPS is to kill other players and there is no real cost of death. There is also no persisted items of value like we have in Eve.
It's funny you fear RL consequence to your in game actions. Maybe if you think being an "asshat" is no big deal you might want to ask how it would get someone upset enough to share their opinion of your actions in a very difficult to misunderstand in RL manner.
You might claim that folks that take "not playing well with others" in a game as a serious breach of RL morality are "crazy" but I'd remind you a big piece of the folk we share this space marble with consider just the "thought" of an immoral act as the same as having done it.
What is moral is a very tricky subject and I believe impossible to define as an absolute but I do know that if I do something to someone for fun that I wouldn't like happening to me I might need to rethink why I'm doing it.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
249
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 06:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:I ganked a couple miners today. It was p fun.
I'm very glad to see folks active in the forums but this has been something I have say..
Please, just back away from the character creator!!
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
250
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 11:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Michael Holmes Holmes wrote:I love how the griefers just tend to run the debate in circles because they can't seem to admit that acting like a bully in game is no better than acting like one out of game.
Is that too much for you griefers to process? Do you need us to spell it out any more plainly?
We don't care if you kill other players, just don't be a jerk about it and "extract tears" because that turns the whole event from being about blowing up internet spaceships to harassing the other player.
I guess you are cool with that though...because you are all dark and evil and nobody understands your pain.
Process this: Game=/= RL. 
Mags, I assume you are a troll, but much like the ducks that sit on my deck I enjoy feeding the wildlife once in a while.
Not every game is the same. A lot of games have clear goals, winning and losing are clearly defined.
Many online computer games that put one player against another are designed in a way that you are intended to be in conflict with another and the cost of losing is small and there is no persistence. You play the game and it goes where it goes. When you log in tomorrow you are mostly where you were before regardless of wins or losses in previous sessions.
Eve is different. Eve allows someone to spend a lot of the only RL currency (time) that matters to build stuff. Eve also allows asshats (tm) to 'splode that same stuff with no consequence. It allows asshats (tm) to play Eve just to mess with folk, to somehow enjoy being an asshat (tm) for the fun of the tears.
Eve is as near as I can figure is the only game where asshats(tm) can actually with no consequence in game destroy the result of someone's substantial RL time persisted work product and hide in a community that seems to thinks its moral,
It's not, it is folks getting pleasure from no other benefit that causing someone else's pain. That you aren't sophisticated in your understanding of the human condition to understand that negating the result of someones efforts that cost them something they can't ever replace (their time) isn't "the way Eve works", it's your failing as a human.
Morality is a personal trait. But there definitely exists a generally accepted definition of "do on to others...". You can pretend that you are playing a game so it doesn't matter but because Eve persists the result of actual RL folks time when you ignore that rule because "messin with folk" is fun for you then you are and asshat rat bastard in game and RL.
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
251
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mag's wrote: stuff where Mags shows how he hasn't bothered to think about the philosophical issues of morality in a persistent MMORP... ]
Mags,
You can ignore the content of the comments make a lot of cute derisive comments that deflect the core concept of my argument.
That argument is not all games are the same and Eve is unique in that it allows someone to invest the only real world currency (their time) to build something that persists and as a result has real value. That the act of someone destroying that "thing" just for the fun of it even though it is virtual is no different to the victim as taking something out of the victims RL that cost them the same RL currency (their time).
That you don't see how the world we live in is blurring what is "virtual" and is "real" means you are unaware of your surroundings or living in a cave.
Game or RL is exact;y the same in terms of time spent and the value there of. You can go off and say its a game but that just shows you lack of understanding. All you have is your time. If I waste your time I am harming you in a way that you can never recover from. Time can not be replaced.
You aren't smart enough I guess to understand the nature of the human experience and how the the time we have is all that matters in the end. Maybe you need to get older or have a brush with your morality. I hope you do as it may give the perspective that more aware folks have developed.
Once you understand the value of the time we have left your life can improve dramatically,
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
363
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 07:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
So folks need to take a step back and realize games like Eve are not Pong. What we do persists. We invest in Eve expecting that persistence. So actions have consequences that go beyond the immediate persistence of the session. So Eve is not chess, it is a board game put back in its box and under the bed once someone owns Boardwalk. What you do to someone is there when they log back in.
People play with the expectations of their successes to remain and to have real value. They invest a part of their life in a manner just like a large part of real life.
I am an artist in my spare time. I make interactive electronic art. When I am lucky my pieces get in galleries for a month or two at a time. I have never sold a piece of my work yet. If you want to buy a Zundelphone please contact me directly!! I have things in Eve I worked on as much as my art. When someone destroys something I've put effort into just for grins it is the same as if someone vandalized a piece of my work in the gallery (by the way, someone did destroy a piece of mine in my last show, probably a goon that realized the gallery was definitely "low sec").
So I've made the argument before and I will again. Eve by its persistent nature makes the stuff we collect here with our time close to or identical to stuff we spent the same amount of our time in our real lives.
Many of the things we once thought of as physical items, like music, books and movies are turning virtual. Stuff in life that we value that we no longer own in a physical manner. It doesn't take a lot of genius to see we are moving into a world where virtual and physical are identical. Eve is a place (with other persistent virtual worlds) that is pioneering that evolution.
Less enlightened folks don't get that yet. All I can say is I look forward to the day that folks that reject that notion discover they no longer own a music collection or even a bank balance because some asshat decided it would be fun to destroy their virtual assets with some technology hack. Then they might learn that we are moving to a world where real and virtual are the same and start to respect that anything that cost someone time to collect or create has value even if it only exists in a persistent virtual manner.
If you are consuming the right substances right now or spend some time contemplating the nature of self awareness and "reality", tell me how you can prove Eve is any different than what you claim is your "real life" when you can't prove anything you think you perceive is real and not an illusion or simulation.
Issler |
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